EEC Contractors > Consultants Forum free to right consultant members

Unanswered Active Topics

Forums Search

Subject: EEC Contractors

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author

Messages

Hugh

Newbie
Posts:8

19-03-2008 12:56 PM
I currently have a site whereby the principal contractor and other contractors are German. Qualified electricians and plumbers in Germany however can they be considered so in the UK? The client has used them before in Germany and considers them to be the best choice available yet Im unsure what would be required to ensure their work is considered legal and if anyone from the UK should be involved. The Architect is UK based however not employed to oversee the works. Would EEC contractors need to be certified by UK electricians and Corgi registered plumbers? I guess this will be quite a common occurence in the years to come. Regards Hugh

Chris

Apprentice
Posts:14

20-03-2008 2:40 PM
Hi there. I went further with my investigations and got answers, backed up by IOSH that these trades you mention can install and fit, but can't sign off anything, the company they are working for will, normally, supply a 'competent' person to approve their work. i hope this helps.

Fergal

Posts:9

24-03-2008 10:25 AM
Several points to address here. I have had to deal with this situation in the Print industry where most of the equipment is German or Swiss and they fly over people to install. contracts are worth several £m some times. Firstly they have not got a clue about about CDM and our health and safety requirements. Langauge is not usually a problem and they are very good at what they do and work all hours! Under CDM they would not be deemed competent, unless they can prove otherwise, with uk or equivalent H & S training! The client in my case had to appoint a Managing Contractor who was SEC to look after the H & S side of things on site and prepare the Health and Safety plan. Your client has a responsibility to engage competent people as Pricipal Contractor and Contractors. Not sure what your role is though!? If a designer, then has the client got a CDM-C who can advise on CDM H&S matters. If you are realiting just technilcal requirements then yes thes are all covered by the building regulations and work needs to be instaaled or signed of by a competent person to say they have been designed and or installed to UK regs. weather that be Corgi or NICEIC etc. hope this helps!

Apprentice
Posts:10

26-03-2008 10:21 AM
Sorry, but I think we have a major problem looming and HSE has to wake up before we have an incident. "Continental" contractors / manufacturers just do not meet UK standards / practices, particularly electrical safety / methods of isolation. I used to work for a German company and their culture was "no one who was not trained would work on this equipment" - UK culture is "any fool can walk in..... protect the fool". Sorry, but that's the way it is all conceived. I am an electrical engineer (HND) and I recently saw the supply of a small electrical plant to the UK. I am the first to admit that I am not an expert in IEE 17th edition etc but: No means of easy isolation of auxiliaries (heaters etc). None of those twisty lockable isolator yellow things. Wiring not identified (cable tags, what use are they?) Bare 400V bus bars inside breaker panel (OK, you have to unbolt the door...) but then.... Auxilary teminal strip a few inches from 400V busbars....terminal strip containing 400V power and control No diagram showing method of disconnection (I'm not sure if this is actually a requirement at low voltage), but is good practice. Pipwork not banded (well it is nice to know before you open it up, whether the contents could be oil, water, gas or sewage........) Do not ask about design risk assessments! (or even Hazop...) Our problem is that there is H&S law, and H&S court, but no H&S police. Is it me?

Fergal

Posts:9

27-03-2008 12:46 PM
Di, It is the clients or principal contractor responsability, together with the CDM-C to ensure any contractor is competent to do the work electrical or other; to uk regulations/requirements. Any work would need to be signed off by a suitably competent/ qualified person and this where any fault or non-compliance will be apparent and have to be rectified.

Roy

Newbie
Posts:6

04-04-2008 8:50 AM
Good point, however the culture of companies must change and ensure, as the law requires that those they employee are competent etc. Difficult i must add given the pressures and sometimes labour/contractors were required "yesterday" as it were, however i also feel there needs to be a review of how we police and overcome this issue.

Hugh

Newbie
Posts:8

02-06-2008 3:08 PM
Thanks for the feedback:- They would appear to be competent in respect of technical work, if they follow the regs yet need to be signed off by UK qualified certifiers yet are not competent as far as having knowledge of the UK H&S regulations. Given the client is German, I think they would take the view the German Health and Safety system is just as good if not better than the UKs and would deem them competent. Especially as the client had understood our construction teams wore spurs and ten gallon hats hence the employment of the best from the fatherland coming over. I think the HSE should give exact guidance on overseas workers or it will come down to a matter of opinion which is less than satisfactory.

Roy

Newbie
Posts:6

27-06-2008 12:01 PM
Hi, the HSE do not have to give any further guidance regarding overseas workers. They just have to comply with CDM 2007, and/or the ACOP which gives the criteria for H&S competency in appendix 4. It is the responsibility of the Client with guidance from his CDM -C to ensure only competent contractors and personnel are employed, and this would need to be demonstrated that such steps were taken. Actual performance on site is something else. They have to employ a managing contractor to look after the Health and Safety aspects on site, which has happened on a few of my projects mainly involving process plant installation with foreign workers. What your Client and Contractors needs to bear in mind is that CDM is enforceable, and criminal laws apply with severe penalties, fines and imprisonment if things go badly wrong.

cemark

Posts:0

06-01-2009 11:33 AM
Hi Di Firstly, you do raise some interesting issues here and secondly the whole thrust of the debate so far misses the point that needs to be made. So I will be clear about what is required. The Management at Work Regulations requires anyone who undertakes such activity to be compentent at what they do. Compentency has been defined in Hansard, of all places, yes in parliament no less, which requires the demonstration of competence be experience and appropriate qualifications. Whatever these need to be to undertake the work. In your case in particular there are specific requirements for such plant and they are NOT soley down to the IEE Wiring Regs BS7671, they are covered under the supply of machinery regualtions and the Machniery Directive, which sets out minimum health and Safety requirements for these machines. Safety is covered by a plethora of standards but the main ones are BSEN12100, Mechanical Safety, BSEN60204, Electrical Safety, BSEN14121, Risk Assessment for Machniery etc. etc. Whoever installs these plant or machinery must supply an appropriate Decalaration of Conformity of Incorporation for the installation and create and hold a Technical File for them. Under CDM there may also be specific requirements for competency, which must be demonstrated. I trust this helps clarify a few points Will Dipper

You are not authorized to post a reply.